Is Perfectionism Good for Performance? | Josiah Igono & Erik Averill | Athlete CEO #59

Erik Averill (00:13):

Hey everyone, welcome back to the Athlete CEO Podcast. I'm your host, Erik Averill, co-founder of AWM Capital, where we partner with our clients to unlock the full potential of their wealth. And one of the key tenants that we believe is that you are the greatest driver of your net worth, that you yourself are the most valuable asset that you have. And so this podcast, the Athlete CEO Podcast, is all about bringing you the knowledge, skills, and access to world-class experts to help you unlock your full potential. And we have the gift, once again, to be in-house with our resident Peak Performance Coach, the founder of All Things Performance, Josiah Igono. Jo, thanks for being back again.

Josiah Igono (00:58):

Hey, E, thanks man. Thanks for having me. Excited, man. Excited.

Erik Averill (01:01):

I'm excited for this. A little shout out to a client, he'll know who he is. This topics for you. I also heard he's a little bit of a trash talker. I know he listens to the podcast. He thinks he's a better podcast host than Josiah, but the conversation we want to have today is something that I think so many elite performers struggle with, is perfectionism.

Josiah Igono (01:25):

Yeah.

Erik Averill (01:25):

That everybody tells us you're the best in the world at what you do and that you're on this kind of treadmill for performance. And sometimes it gets to this unrealistic expectation on yourself and it can become paralyzing.

Josiah Igono (01:40):

Yeah.

Erik Averill (01:41):

When we talk about perfectionism, how do you define it? Where are you seeing this show up? Why is this such an important conversation?

Josiah Igono (01:49):

Yeah. Great question. Perfectionism is something that plagues a lot of athletes. Perfectionism is not accepting anything that is short of perfection. And when you start looking at some of the seminal roots, if you will, of perfectionism, you see it in clinical psychology. People who had elevated levels of depression and anxiety, they started noticing that they actually had elevated levels of perfectionism. And so when somebody is a perfectionist, this is an individual who accepts nothing less of perfection as acceptable.

Erik Averill (02:22):

So I think back to, for whatever reason, Remember the Titans pops into my head here.

Josiah Igono (02:29):

Okay.

Erik Averill (02:29):

That as a team, he's like, "We don't have any perfect individuals, but we're chasing perfectionism." And so in this world of sports, it's like, "I'm not going to be happy until I reach the ultimate level of perfectionism." And I think at times we can add in, "Well, that must be what Jordan was after. That must be what Tiger was after. That must be what XYZ was after." Why is chasing perfectionism not great for your performance?

Josiah Igono (03:01):

So, that's the million dollar question right there, that you just asked. Is perfectionism good or is it bad? Is it good or is it bad? So one of the foremost scholars in this area, somebody that I truly respect is an individual by the name of Dr. Joachim Stoeber. And he says that we have, in essence, three different types of perfectionists. And the research has shown us that individuals who strive for perfection on the athletic field, musicians who strive for perfection in their trade craft, and even students who strive for perfection in the classroom, that when you strive for perfection, you actually outperform and outclass your peers.

The problem therein lies is what happens when you don't reach perfection? And we call those maladaptive concerns or perfectionistic concerns. It's the fear of failure, fear of criticism, stress and anxiety. "I thought this was going to happen in the game and this happened." That's where you get in trouble.

Erik Averill (04:00):

Got it. So it's interesting, all of those are connected. They're not fragmented, being like, "Oh, I'm fear of failure." A lot of times that's attached to this, this perfectionism and this incorrect mindset. So if it leads to outperformance in the short-term when it works, it seems like, "Okay, I don't want to lose that, but I clearly want to avoid going down into the doldrums if I'm not perfect."

Josiah Igono (04:26):

Yes.

Erik Averill (04:27):

What's a healthy perspective as opposed to just chasing perfectionism?

Josiah Igono (04:33):

So I've developed an acronym, if you will, that helps people mitigate perfectionism. So when you start looking at some of, you mind if I share it?

Erik Averill (04:43):

Yeah. 100%. Let's go.

Josiah Igono (04:44):

All right. So if you look at military strategy of yesteryear, what would happen is that they would send in these spies, these foot soldiers, to set up camps around any nation or army that they were about to besiege. And they would gather intel, they would find out what the weaknesses were, what the strengths were, and they would gather this information, bring it back to the headquarters and say, "Hey, this is what we got." So, the acronym is CAMPS. I want you as the listener to envision you setting up CAMPS around this next chapter in your life so that if perfectionism is something you struggle with, you can now overcome it.

So the C stands for celebrate. A lot of perfectionists don't celebrate. They don't take the time to really understand, like, "I've come a long way." Leonardo da Vinci said, "I have offended both God and mankind because my work did not reach the level it should have." And this is one of the brightest minds ever, right?

Erik Averill (05:37):

Right.

Josiah Igono (05:37):

As an inventor, a scientist, a Renaissance man, a mathematician. I mean, "I have offended both God and mankind because my work didn't reach the level it should have." So you got to celebrate. A, you got to go all out. You never know if you never go. A lot of perfectionist keep their worlds small. "Oh, I can control these two things," but you give them 20, it's like, you know what I'm saying?

Erik Averill (05:59):

Yeah.

Josiah Igono (06:00):

You have to go all out. You never know if you never go. When you don't go all out what happens is you never get a true measuring stick for who you truly are.

Erik Averill (06:00):

Wow.

Josiah Igono (06:09):

The M stands for make minor improvements. And make sure, asterisks, you document them. So many perfectionists they throw away what they've done over weeks, months, years, decades, for that one moment. And they're like, "It's not good enough." Make minor improvements. Are you the same person you are today than you were three years ago? Are you better? Many perfectionists they fail to let this come into their strata.

So, C, celebrate, go all out, make minor improvements. P is process. We hear that a lot in sports. "Oh, you got to follow the process. Process." Everybody's preaching process, dude. What is that? When you look at processes, the main thing that it's about is quality inputs. Your inputs always affect your outputs. There is not one place in human history where a man or a woman planted a tree and it grew up the next day. You know what I'm saying? That junk don't work. You know what I'm saying? So if you want different outputs, change your inputs and make sure that they're consistent over time.

And then the S is perhaps the most powerful. I notice this a lot with the athletes that I work with. You are not what you do.

Erik Averill (07:14):

Wow.

Josiah Igono (07:15):

You have to, S, separate. You need to separate who you are from what it is that you do. After a baseball game, after a football game, you're not going home wearing your jersey. "Oh, man, I should have done this." You take that sucker off, take a shower, hit the reset button. "What did I do well? What did I do better? Or what can I do better?" And then you go on. You have to separate who you are from what you do. You entered into this world highly valuable. You will leave valuable. And the game, the results, don't add any value to who you are as a person. So that is the analogy.

C-A-M-P-S, CAMPS, celebrate, all out, make minor improvements, honor the process, and separate who you are from what you do.

Erik Averill (07:54):

Wow. That's super helpful. I think we could probably park and maybe we'll do this in the future on each of those letters. But one of the things that resonated with me was make minor improvements, but then you threw this asterisk in there of make sure you document it. And it goes back to an episode we had done previously on reflection.

Josiah Igono (08:13):

Right.

Erik Averill (08:13):

So I think as someone within a company that we are fortunate enough to have some of the best advisors in the world at what they do, I see this set up a lot of the times of we don't celebrate wins because it's like, "I just have so much more to go and to advance."

Josiah Igono (08:32):

Yes.

Erik Averill (08:33):

And we also didn't even document to remember what to celebrate. And so there's part of that reflection. When I look at this measurement, it's funny, essentially my strength coach, Tanner Allen, who owns Journey Training texted me this picture of this morning of me attempting to do a Kipping pull up. And I think this was exactly an example of this because I keep telling him, I was like, "Hey, man, I just don't feel like I'm getting any better." And yesterday I was ripping off just rounds of butterfly pull-ups. And his whole point was like, "Look at this progress that you've made."

Josiah Igono (09:07):

Yes.

Erik Averill (09:08):

And I forgot about. Like, "Oh my goodness, look at the work that we've done." And that actually fuels me into the next chapter. And so I just think it's so important to make sure that we have that documentation, that reflection. And then that last point, and we'll close out on this, is you're not defined by results that you really can't control anyways. That you have this value as an integrated human being, apart from your results on the field, off the field, and so I just think that that is so powerful and I appreciate you sharing that. For all of the listeners I would say access this in the show notes, athletesceo.com. We'll make sure that we get that acronym and some of the supporting resources of what CAMPS is and how you can implement that right away. And then till next time, stay humble, stay hungry, and always be a pro.